Yes, that's what I was going to say. Actually, three years is nothing. But it does get easier.

I did.

The darker the better. Cadbury's is good.

It should be, because it is yourself your own false and unrighteous judgments that are the problem.



People like you clearly have a mental disorder, unable to understand basic economics as well as the facts of an issue. That Church has those "billions" because there are plenty of people that Church has created to make successful in all aspects of life.

The Church blesses lives.... Those people giving that money not only blessed them spiritually, but temporaly, and more importantly, goes to blessing others temporally and spiritually. Tithing money only goes to support the Churches "spiritual" functions, activities, buildings, materials, etc. The "Billions" you speak of is the Churches for profit business side which goes to improving the world in other ways, and in other ways that aren't so well known and are that go towards it's mission.

You want the Church to give more, yet you have no comprehension that if the Church gave more, then there would not be any investment, growth, jobs, and on and on. You want us to be like other Churches that have nothing and go no where accomplishing almost nothing.

You liberals don't understand that you take all the money, then there is no money to create. There are no investors, there are no businesses, on and on. You apply to the Church the same flawed ideology's you try to apply to government and society.



Man, you people just don't get it..... They told you not to look at them because they knew you would end up exactly where you are, that you don't have the intellectual and moral capacity to look beyond the obvious, and get at the actual truth and facts, which ultimately support the Churches position. I know what I'm saying because I've been there. You can mock me, think you know better, but I've been where you are, and you falsely judge the Church on cherry picked information, rather than the full truth and facts.

They told you to avoid it, the same way a parent tells a child not to look at Porn.
It's NOT because they have something to "hide" as you falsely claim, it's to protect you, until you can gradually know and understand information when you are ready to, and understand for yourself why porn is bad and not good for you to look at. It's really that simple....

It applies to everything in life, not to touch the stove, don't cross the street by yourself, on and on....

We have nothing to "hide"..... Everything you know about us, comes from us. Problem is, is you only focus on the negative cherry pick, instead of studying out things for yourself understanding the context.



I'm sorry you feel that way, but it is a feeling based on false and ignorant judgments of the Church. It's not based on actual honesty and truthfulness. You're not the first to think something wasn't right. Problem is, you're unwilling to recognize that maybe it's your own judgments based on incomplete information that isn't right. You see an obvious seeming wrong, yet make no effort to understand the details and the deeper implications, causality, etc. Just like your judgment of the Church with the Mall. The Church owns "businesses"..... Those businesses then operate like businesses, they make investments, build, on and on. The only difference from a standard business is that the Church itself takes a significant portion of those proceeds, to fulfill other things for the Church, be it the poor, needy, future plans, etc. The irony is that even this isn't that much different from good people that run businesses. They take a portion of their proceeds and try to do good in the world.

The problem here, is not the Church, but you.... You suffer from Envy, Coveting.... which are sins.
You falsely think that if all the rich just gave there money away to the poor, then there would be few poor. Problem is, that's never worked. All you end up doing is making everyone poor. Because the business or the rich man then has no money to invest and create, and thus he himself becomes poor, and then you end up with Fascism where there are only a few rich controlling all, and everyone else suffers. You say, the rich shouldn't live rich. Problem with that is people have jobs, because of the large home, because of the expensive car, they are able to help more people in other ways, on and on.

Fact is, as with anyone, any business, the Church gives and does what it can with what it has. Yes, the Church might have a little higher standard and higher expectation, but that's simply the price of being the best and becoming the best. It takes greatness to create greatness. The simple fact is, no poor person ever gave anyone a job..... The rich do not "sit" on their money, it goes to something, and that includes the Church. Thus, it's benefiting people on the entire chain.

You people really need to get off your computers, stop judging, and get involved and start understanding how the world turns, how life and society is created and maintained.

ldsfaqs,

Instead of spouting right wing Mormon nonsense in response to an important issue, why not just explain exactly how a poor family living in a shack with a dirt floor is helped by giving money to the LDS Church that could otherwise be used for food, or medicine, or even some basic education for their children.

If the Church were really following Christ's alleged teachings, it would be out in the world seeking out such people and helping them - not demanding that these people give the Church money they clearly cannot give without harming themselves or their children.

One reason is that you are told to be angry. Most likely you read critic sites, exmormon sites and all are telling you to be angry. Lets take the Mall. The mall provides hundreds and hundreds of jobs for the people of salt lake. Good deal for them. It also makes downtown vibrant. Good deal there too. It is a win win. But you are told to be angry. So you are angry. If you had a job at the mall or if your son or daughter were working their way through school at the mall, you would be happy.

Now politics. Actually, all churches are involved in politics. In this case, you just don't agree with the church's politics. In fact, the lds church is perhaps the least involved in politics. Just look at the unitarian universalists...they are always involved.

Solution: stop surfing sites that are encouraging you to be angry and all will be well.

On this board you anger will be encouraged. You will be told that it is good to be angry and that it is part of the healing process. The problem is: I have been here for years and the people are still angry and bitter like most people on critic boards. The mall was a good investment and it is providing people with jobs. What is the problem?

Do catholics go through this too? The catholic and mormon church kinda agree with each other politically on moral issues.

Not if one keeps posting on boards that encourage anger and hate. The poor OP is here being encouraged to be angry at a Mall. It is just a mall...a good investment that detroit and newark wish they had. Nothing wrong with providing people with work.

I have never heard of a mormon going hungry. In fact, just the opposite. I have seen rent paid, bills paid, financial help given and job opportunities discussed. Mormons certainly do not go hungry.

Maybe you people need to get a life. My God, find something great and get involved in it. Get excited about some new thing. Yes all churches are run by men and they are all screwed up. So what, what did you expect? Are you easily led by a fancy story? Are you so removed from reality? Did you expect heaven on earth? Have you not read a line of scripture? Just where in scripture does it say you will live the easy great life when you join a church? Have you not read the church history and the trials that the early members went through? Can't you see that it is exactly like the Jews in Jerusalem? Only in times of trouble did the Jews return to God. Give man the good life and he wanders off. The church wandered off. They all do. Just what were your expectations? Just like the church which uses money in ways not in line with the original intent should we use their error to manifest a larger error within us? I am sorry but all of this energy in anger should be redirected. Find some new thing to believe in. Wrap yourself in your new life and leave the old behind. What a bunch of losers. Wake up!!

I will stay in the church because I believe in some of the doctrines. I also believe in the restored priesthood. But I have eyes and know that the administration of all churches are screwed up. Why would I connect the dots from bad behavior of leadership to my beliefs? Get a spine people. It seems to me you don't believe in anything and just blow in the wind. Find something to believe in.

DrW has wrapped himself in science. I disagree with that as a world view but I respect his strong faith in his decision. Scripture says be hot or cold. Christ can deal with that. But don't be lukewarm.

Apparently so. Everyone parroting the same "fancy story", crying about it in testimony meetings year after year, claiming that they know it to be true with "every fiber of their being" Silly us for lacking the advanced cynicism and distrust of our fellow man like yourself.



Not a Mormon I ever knew expected "heaven on earth", but the truth? I expected the truth.


Doesn't seem like you got much out of those Christian teachings.


Some? That is too funny. Most ex-members are the same as you. Only, they just believe fewer of the doctrines than do you. Some? You must be smarter than the prophets and apostles that once taught the doctrines that you now dismiss as unnecessary.

That is probably the difference between the angry ex-mo and the barely there current member; the ex-mo was actually fully engaged.


in what way exactly are you anything but a "lukewarm" member?

I had a recurring dream for many years. One where I was in the ward building where I grew up, trying to get out of it. There were 4 doors to the outside in that building. In my dream every one I go to is blocked by some soft puffy white Mormon guy in a cheap business suit.

Then one Christmas season, my family planned for our family party in the "cultural hall" of the very same building. My husband (who I had told the dream to) and I walked around the whole church.

I haven't had that dream since.

My experience is, the attitude and feelings toward Mormonism go in waves. The anger comes around now and then, but then will subside and be replaced with something else. Sometimes disgust, bemusement, apathy, sentimentality, etc.

You so don't get it. I have zero expectations of the church. I have many expectations in Christ. The church is a vehicle and nothing more. The people I go to church with are honest hardworking men and women. I like to hang out with those kinds of people. I gave up the bar scene many years ago as shallow and worthless. And for your information my faith in God has little to do with a membership. I fellowship with people I like not because of the building. Why would you measure faith by active membership? Abraham is the root of the tree of faith. The entire church is trying to be a branch on that tree. The root is made by a nonmember. Have you not read scripture?

I have a life thanks for the advice Frank What amazing words of wisdom, have you ever considered going into the self help business? I'm sure you would make millions with such amazing solutions to people's problems.



I can't talk about anyone else here, but I'm involved in many projects and causes that I think are worthwhile. It seems a bit stupid to complain about people talking about Mormonism, while on a message board talking about Mormonism. Maybe you should consider getting involved in something "great", the LDS Church is far from it and engage in that other thing instead of going on Mormon related message boards to complain about other people who are posting on Mormonism. I don't think Mormon God or the LDS Church would approve of using your God's name in vain either.



You aren't really selling your Church or religion in general here. So they are all screwed up, I guess why bother with any of them?

What is expected? I don't know, maybe what the Church claims in the false advertizing? Maybe a church that doesn't mislead and misrepresent their history? Maybe one that actually lives up to what it preaches? I'd love to see where the church states what you did above.



Since I was formerly a believing member of the LDS Church apparently I am, I don't know if you are still a believing member or ever were Frank, were you misled by a fanciful story too?



What reality are you talking about Frank? Native Americans being Israelites? The millions that are paid out as a result of child abuse scandals and the Church's poor record in that area? Joseph Smith's sending men on missions and then sleeping with their wives while they were gone? The LDS Church spending billions on shopping malls while children are starving and dying in the world? Which reality?



What is promised to investigators Frank, if not a piece of heaven on earth? If there is no connection between heaven and earth what is the point of the LDS Church?



I haven't read the scripture where it says to give 10% of your money to a Corporation while people are starving in the world. I never read that one, but maybe you can share it with me.



I have and the majority of the difficulties that early LDS church members seem to have gone through was inflicted on them by the selfish, greedy and illegal actions of their leaders within the Church and the reaction that provoked from those in the surrounding area. What point are you trying to make?



Just because anti-semitism is encouraged in your scripture doesn't mean it is appropriate in dialogue in the real world now.



Well 7 Billion a year really is the good life isn't it? What are you trying to say that the LDS Church is in apostasy? Well why would you bother to keep going if you believe that?



So what is your recommendation to remedy the problem with the LDS Church and the fact that it operates more like a business than a charity to help those who are in need and afflicted? Maybe the expectation was that a Church that has become rich from donations would use that money in a way that really helps the world and practiced what it preaches? Is that too much to ask?



I agree the anger would be much better spent in seeking to remove the LDS Church's tax free status or in forcing it to be financially transparent. That is something I believe in.



Yeah because talking about Mormonism on discussion boards makes some a loser doesn't it Frank? Welcome to the club.



Well done!! What do you want a sticker for it? So you admit your Church is f****d up, but want a pat on the back for staying in it? Why would anyone connect the dots? Or stop paying money to an organization that isn't doing things they want with the money they have? Why would they Frank, it beats me?



Why would people be in a rush to believe in something again, after finding out that the last fairytale turned out to be such lies? Why would they Frank? I can't think of any reason. It seems to me though it would take more spine to leave an organization that wasn't practicing what it preaches than refusing to connect the dots?



So you disagree with science Frank, that's good to know. I guess when you need it for anything you will refuse the services that use the discoveries science has made. I don't think DrW would describe himself as having faith, but I'll let him answer that one.



Well your interpretation of that scripture would suggest either fully accepting the LDS Church and the leaders' claims or fully rejecting them? You saying that the Church is f****d while at the same time saying that you believe in it sounds pretty lukewarm to me.

Either way this was a person expressing the pain that the LDS Church has caused them and people they know. You'd think maybe you would be able to show a little more charity maybe? Place yourself in their shoes for a second? It is kinda what your God teaches in some of your scriptures is it not?

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

I think also (from my own experience) we create monsters-under-the-bed. Fearing leaving or what other might think because we imagine the worst reaction possible. Sometimes what we imagine matches up to reality, other times it doesn't.

What a strange post. OK, I agree with the idea that people have unrealistic expectations and so forth, but calling others "losers"?

Talking down to others is not the best strategy for persuading them.

The world is filled with evil. It is everywhere. Did you expect an island where you could go and get away from it? If you like history I suggest reading some history of the American Indians. Read The History of the American Indians by James Adair. It was written in 1775 long before Joseph Smith came along. It just may open your eyes to what modern men have done to our past and to our culture.





Wow.

Yeah, I have to vote with Frank there. The Old Testament makes a pretty strong case for Israel's departure from God. If you don't believe in God or revelation, you kinda have to admit that it looks like self-condemnation going on there rather than anti-Semitism.

You are right I should not have used that term. I wanted shock value and it seemed appropriate at the time. I have no expectations that what I write will in any way get people to return to the church. That is not my goal. But I get so tired of the pity party that goes on here and other sites. I do believe that when one sets up unrealistic expectations that you have just created your own future. How else could the story end? I want people to learn from the experience. Move along but don't lean on another organization instead lean on yourself.