Engaging Mormon Apologetics

MrStakhanovite · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:44 pm

I'm going to call it now.

The only person who is going to actually respond to me is EA.

Edit to Add: Goodnight sweet princes, I have to go pick up my better half from work. Until Sunday night!

Facsimile 3 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:45 pm

MrStakhanovite wrote:

Facsimile 3 wrote:

I can't defend my nominalism, so I'll stress that 1 is a symbol.

I'm asking for truth making properties and you keep telling me that it's relative to culture. Surely you don't think that we make our own truths, do you?

Wow, false quoting me and not engaging with what I am saying is totally lame.

Themis · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:46 pm

Darth, you must have grown up in the same LDS church I did. What I wonder is where this other LDS church meets that so many apologists seem to belong to.

Facsimile 3 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:47 pm

MrStakhanovite wrote:

Man, for someone who likes to call thinkers like Quine, Strawson and Ryle bed wetting sketpics, you sure are slow to produce a counter-example.

You forgot to add Bertrand Russell to that list. And I still don't understand what you want me to type in order to satisfy you.

I'm at a loss here. I just don't agree that 1+1=2 means anything outside of human culture.

Trevor · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:49 pm

Themis wrote:

Darth, you must have grown up in the same LDS church I did. What I wonder is where this other LDS church meets that so many apologists seem to belong to.

Facsimile 3 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:55 pm

Darth J wrote:

Facsimile 3 wrote:

Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth?

___Yes

_X_No

You know what bugs me? When these anti-Mormon sock puppets like Facsimile 3 get on message boards and pretend to be faithful members of the Church. It's pretty easy to spot them, though, because what they say shows that they have no idea what the Church really teaches.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf
November 2006 Ensign

When we bear testimony, we declare the absolute truth of the gospel message. In a time when many perceive truth as relative, a declaration of absolute truth is not very popular, nor does it seem politically correct or opportune.

Spencer W. Kimball
July 1979 Ensign

This true way of life is not just an opinion. There are absolute truths and relative truths. The rules concerning what a person should eat have changed many times in my lifetime. Many scientific findings have changed from year to year. The scientists taught for decades that the world was once a nebulous, molten mass cast off from the sun, and later many scientists said it once was a whirl of dust which solidified. There are many ideas advanced to the world that have been changed to meet the needs of the truth as it has been discovered. There are relative truths, and there are also absolute truths which are the same yesterday, today, and forever—never changing. These absolute truths are not altered by the opinions of men. As science has expanded our understanding of the physical world, certain accepted ideas of science have had to be abandoned because new truths have been discovered. Some of these seeming truths were stoutly maintained for centuries. The sincere searching of science often rests only on the threshold of truth, whereas revealed facts give us certain absolute truths as a beginning point so we may come to understand the nature of man and the purpose of his life.

Neal A. Maxwell
October 1975 Ensign

If men are not steering by absolute truth, they will drift in the rolling sea of relativism.

Gordon B. Hinckley
January 2004 Ensign

In medicine, physics, and chemistry, some of the criteria have changed. In political science and law, attitudes have changed. In literature and art there has been a shift in standards. Across that educational landscape there have been change and modification—everywhere except in the eternal truths of God.

Many centuries ago, one of the great prophets of what we call the Old Testament, the volume of scripture we will study this year, gave counsel that is inspiringly applicable to the scene I have described: “The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” (Isa. 40:8.)

This condition has led me to consider pillars of eternal truth which can support and sustain us through all our years if we will heed them and conform our lives to their standards.

Bruce R. McConkie
November 1984 Ensign

Angels again are coming from the courts of glory to declare eternal truths to mortal men.

Russell M. Nelson
May 2002 Ensign

I have studied the scriptures pertaining to that part of eternity before the earth was formed. These unseen and timeless truths constitute “premortal pillars” that undergird the foundation of this Church.

Elder Ronald E. Poelman
November 1984 Ensign

The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values, principles, and interpretations, but to learn and live the eternal truths of the gospel.

Gordon B. Hinckley
July 2006 Ensign

I believe without equivocation or reservation in God the Eternal Father. I thank Him for His voice, which has spoken eternal truth with power and promise.

Official Church Website: Gospel Topics
Plan of Salvation

We can find meaning in our present life, knowing that our actions during mortality influence our eternal destiny. With this knowledge, we can base important decisions on eternal truths rather than on the changing circumstances of life.

Ezra Taft Benson
September 1979 New Era

It is well to remember that when men make new discoveries in their energetic search for truth, these will always be in harmony with all fundamental and eternal truths. These are eternal principles—as eternal as life itself.

Doctrine & Covenants 130:18-19

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come

Joseph B. Wirthlin
November 1995 Ensign

If we configure our hearts and minds properly with faith, disciplined obedience, prayer, and scripture study, we can access the network of divine and eternal truths. When we are obedient, the windows of heaven are opened not just to pour out blessings of earthly abundance, but also to pour out blessings of spiritual abundance—blessings of infinite and eternal worth.

Elder Elder Gary L. Pocock
July 2007 Ensign

These simple steps—study, ponder, and pray—enable us to learn eternal truths so they are anchored to our souls by the power of the Holy Ghost.

LOL

Oh no ;-)

who could have ever predicted a comeback to my answer like this ;-) .

Hey maybe you can help me with something.

Were the general authorities quoted addressing philosophy students? Did they present systems like Descartes or Spinoza to explain how these things tie into an ultimate reality?

Facsimile 3 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:08 pm

Themis wrote:

Darth, you must have grown up in the same LDS church I did. What I wonder is where this other LDS church meets that so many apologists seem to belong to.

See here is how I see it.

This place

[/quote]

is the image many people (perhaps some of you in this thread came from this group) have of the Church who are fundamentalists. And when the Church doesn't match up with this image for them in their experience there is a major crisis that happens to their faith. Some become anti Mormon attacking the fundamentalist projections of their past.

Trevor · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:10 pm

Facsimile 3 wrote:

See here is how I see it.

This place was the image many people (perhaps some of you in this thread came from this group) have of the Church who are fundamentalists. And when the Church doesn't match up with this image for them in their experience there is a major crisis that happens to their faith. Some become anti Mormon attacking the fundamentalist projections of their past.

When did you lose your sense of humor? I'm sorry, dude. 'Tis a shame.

Facsimile 3 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:13 pm

Trevor wrote:

When did you lose your sense of humor? I'm sorry, dude. 'Tis a shame.

Oh don't be that way Trevor. I saw the humor and I saw it as a great teaching moment too. Speaking of humor, I really miss your old avatar here with Snoop Dog reading the Book of Mormon. I'm casting my vote for it to come back.

Trevor · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:16 pm

Facsimile 3 wrote:

Oh don't be that way Trevor. I saw the humor and I saw it as a great teaching moment too. Speaking of humor, I really miss your old avatar here with Snoop Dog reading the Book of Mormon. I'm casting my vote for it to come back.

Oh, shucks. I just can't stand that you would look at my dear munchkin village as the realm of Fundamentalists. It just breaks my heart. ;-)

Themis · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:26 pm

Facsimile 3 wrote:

is the image many people (perhaps some of you in this thread came from this group) have of the Church who are fundamentalists. And when the Church doesn't match up with this image for them in their experience there is a major crisis that happens to their faith. Some become anti Mormon attacking the fundamentalist projections of their past.

Yes how fundamentalist of us to state what the church teaches. Darth did come up with some good examples which you haven't shown as wrong, and my change of beliefs is based on the evdience.

Edit: BTW I am also not really a Anti-Mormon or really a critic. I'm still a member and I do attend on occasion.

Darth J · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:47 pm

Facsimile 3 wrote:

LOL

Oh no ;-)

who could have ever predicted a comeback to my answer like this ;-) .

Hey maybe you can help me with something.

Were the general authorities quoted addressing philosophy students? Did they present systems like Descartes or Spinoza to explain how these things tie into an ultimate reality?

No, Facsimile 3, they were addressing members of the LDS Church about the actual teachings of the LDS Church, which generally have no relevance whatsoever to Mormon apologetics.

A believing member of the Church would say that the Holy Ghost reveals eternal, absolute truth, and that these eternal truths are found in the Scriptures and inspired teachings of church leaders, and would not care about Descartes, Spinoza, or any other philosophies of men (mingled with scripture) to explain this precept.

Darth J · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:53 pm

Facsimile 3 wrote:

See here is how I see it.

This place

is the image many people (perhaps some of you in this thread came from this group) have of the Church who are fundamentalists. And when the Church doesn't match up with this image for them in their experience there is a major crisis that happens to their faith. Some become anti Mormon attacking the fundamentalist projections of their past.[/quote]

Fundamentalist

-noun

1. Someone who looks at the teachings of church leaders to find out what the Church teaches instead of apologetic theories to find out what the Church teaches.

2. A pejorative term used by Mormon apologists to mock anyone who claims that the teachings of LDS General Authorities are more authoritative than ad hoc, heretical theories invented by apologists about what the Church teaches.

3. A normal, church-going Latter-day Saint who would be horrified at the ideas that Mormon apologists tend to pass off as the gospel as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

mfbukowski · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:58 pm

Darth J wrote:

Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth?

If you had read my previous posts you would know that this is a moot question. There are moral imperatives which always "work" and in that sense they are always true.

It is never right to kill babies for fun. That is an absolute. It always works in any culture which affirms life

And besides, I don't know what you mean by absolute objective truth. I agree with the posts you have quoted within their contexts.

Those principles are always true because they always work in every possible culture which affirms life, and any other culture would die out anyway. A culture which does not affirm that life is valuable will cease to exist.

mfbukowski · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:12 pm

MrStakhanovite wrote:

mfb,

Asking if you are a realist about numbers should not end up in your pet arguments for Idealism. I'll put it like this:

There is never a case where 1+1=2 is false. It's true in all possible worlds. The notation is cultrual, the concepts it represents is not.

We'll have to get into it sometime. What is a "concept" and how is it represented?

Math is just a linguistic definition. What I mean by 1+1=2. Of course it is always true. A always = A. As long as A doesn't change, that is.

In the real world, nothing ever equals anything else for long.

It's a major diversion- we don't have to get into it now.

Darth J · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:14 pm

Darth J wrote:

Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth?

mfbukowski wrote:

If you had read my previous posts you would know that this is a moot question. There are moral imperatives which always "work" and in that sense they are always true.

Oh, believe me: I understand very well that the teachings of the Church are moot when it comes to apologetics.

Quote:

It is never right to kill babies for fun. That is an absolute. It always works in any culture which affirms life

Perhaps you could share with us some teachings of the Church where good and evil are not absolutes. I mean, besides Joseph Smith's failed pick-up line to Nancy Rigdon.

Quote:

And besides, I don't know what you mean by absolute objective truth. I agree with the posts you have quoted within their contexts.

The issue is what the Bretheren mean by absolute objective truth. Go find me some church teachings about the gospel is based on relative truth. Take your time.

Quote:

Those principles are always true because they always work in every possible culture which affirms life, and any other culture would die out anyway. A culture which does not affirm that life is valuable will cease to exist.

But you seem to forget that the Church teaches that some cultures are righteous and some cultures are wicked.

mfbukowski · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:26 pm

MrStakhanovite wrote:

The only person who is going to actually respond to me is EA.

Did I miss something?

Facsimile 3 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:27 pm

Darth J wrote:

Fundamentalist

-noun

1. Someone who looks at the teachings of church leaders to find out what the Church teaches instead of apologetic theories to find out what the Church teaches.

2. A pejorative term used by Mormon apologists to mock anyone who claims that the teachings of LDS General Authorities are more authoritative than ad hoc, heretical theories invented by apologists about what the Church teaches.

3. A normal, church-going Latter-day Saint who would be horrified at the ideas that Mormon apologists tend to pass off as the gospel as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I wish I could get passionate about random things like you; so much emotion driving the vehicle above all else (sarcasm).

Look, you are engaging an issue that is Philosophical. The Church has no Thomas Aquinas that I am supposed to emulate.

Obviously I believe in truth and I know the Church is true. I don't believe the Church ascribes to an ultimate reality in the way that has been presented here because the Church is all about personal experience and verification. The Church is not true for the individual until he or she prays to know. The principle the Church is teaching is not true until the person lives it and receives the confirmation. Truth coincides with our development as individuals and as cultures of humans. And the circumstances are always changing. Truth as MFB has said, is dependent on propositions.

Truth becomes real in its use and confirmation (that it works). Math is not floating out there in the ultimate realm of an ideal, fixed reality. It is a tool that has developed with our culture that is useful and true because it works.

When Bertrand Russell was trying to get to the very foundations of math and come up with a system it was just another calculus. There is no ultimate calculus to be discovered.

I am off work and ready for bed. I will return when I go to work tomorrow.

Darth J · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:32 pm

Facsimile 3 wrote:

I wish I could get passionate about random things like you; so much emotion driving the vehicle above all else (sarcasm).

It's a gift.

Quote:

Look, you are engaging an issue that is Philosophical. The Church has no Thomas Aquinas that I am supposed to emulate.

Obviously I believe in truth and I know the Church is true. I don't believe the Church ascribes to an ultimate reality in the way that has been presented here because the Church is all about personal experience and verification. The Church is not true for the individual until he or she prays to know. The principle the Church is teaching is not true until the person lives it and receives the confirmation. Truth coincides with our development as individuals and as cultures of humans. And the circumstances are always changing. Truth as MFB has said, is dependent on propositions.

Truth becomes real in its use and confirmation (that it works). Math is not floating out there in the ultimate realm of an ideal, fixed reality. It is a tool that has developed with our culture that is useful and true because it works.

When Bertrand Russell was trying to get to the very foundations of math and come up with a system it was just another calculus. There is no ultimate calculus to be discovered.

I am off work and ready for bed. I will return when I go to work tomorrow.

You remember, of course, that the Church teaches that these subjective feelings and experiences are indicative of objective reality.

mfbukowski · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:49 pm

This argument that the LDS church does not teach what apologists argue is absurd.

Did the Catholic church teach what Aquinas believed before he wrote it?

How many examples do you need? Jews and their apologists and scholars? The doctors of the church in early Christianity?

I am not saying that we can hold a candle to any of these, but the principle is still the same.

There have always been those who have sought to harmonize religion and philosophy and if you don't know that you are just plain ignorant.

And Facsimile 3 is right- you are fundamentalists. The fact that you are stuck on your own interpretations of Mormonism is why you left. Your understanding of the church is dead- it cannot grow and live because you will not allow it.

I have said enough on this stupid topic. It is the same over and over again. You are all stuck in the same rut.

You would think you guys would have enough intelligence to come up with a different argument, but obviously not. I am so tired of hearing this junk, I will not respond to it any more.

mfbukowski · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:54 pm

Darth J wrote:

You remember, of course, that the Church teaches that these subjective feelings and experiences are indicative of objective reality.

As are your subjective feelings that you are reading this on a computer screen. I guess you are now not observing objective reality.

I must be a nightmare.

This is one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard.

I am done til Stak gets back

Engaging Mormon Apologetics

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