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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:14 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Hey, Stem. This brings back a lot of memories. My wife and I left in 2006 and it happened in quite a similar day. At the end of one Sunday meeting, my wife handed me her temple recommend and asked me to hand it to the bishop. There was a single meeting with the bishop and one of his counselors after that, but once they found out that I was attending the Community of Christ on occasion they pretty much left us alone.

After we moved, I started to attend occasionally the local LDS ward with the kids or on my own, but my wife has not attended. I quit going altogether when they instituted the policy of not baptizing the children of cohabiting or married gay folk. That was the final straw for me.

It was not like I had fully believed in Mormonism since about 1999/2000, but the process of exiting was not a quick one for me. It was much faster for my wife, who suddenly binged on Mormon history reading and then decided she was done with it. To this day I do not feel like an ex-Mormon. I do feel like an ex-LDS person. It is mostly the LDS Church that I have a beef with. Yes, I do not believe in the traditional sense, but that is not the deal-breaker that the Church's participation in the Culture Wars is.


That is cool--a pretty similar sounding story. I get the policy change being a final straw. Those were pathetic policies to add.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:17 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Whether the word censor is on or off seems irrelevant to deciding whether calling a female poster a ____ is a personal attack or not.

Or is use of the word censor considered sufficient to eliminate a personal attack? It would be ironic that the worst attacks, which are completely inferable from context, are considered not attacks by a technicality of covering some letters.

Maybe I just don't understand the rule, so i appreciate any clarification you might be willing to offer.


I am not Shades, and I am not a mod, but my opinion is that since both things are against the rules, the word censor does not cover the personal attack. Of course, we have a spotty record here at the trailer park when it comes to enforcing the rule on personal attacks, and I would be lying if I were to say that I have never personally attacked others.

Thanks kish, that seems logical. I'm no angel either, obviously, and I understand the mods can't be everywhere. It's my own fault for not reporting, I suppose, but I'm not comfortable doing that any more so I'm sure I have no right to complain. I just find continued use of this partular word against female posters to be troublesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:23 am 
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Red Ryder wrote:

Whatever his interest he goes all in.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:06 am 
God

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Stem wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
Hey, Stem. This brings back a lot of memories. My wife and I left in 2006 and it happened in quite a similar day. At the end of one Sunday meeting, my wife handed me her temple recommend and asked me to hand it to the bishop. There was a single meeting with the bishop and one of his counselors after that, but once they found out that I was attending the Community of Christ on occasion they pretty much left us alone.

After we moved, I started to attend occasionally the local LDS ward with the kids or on my own, but my wife has not attended. I quit going altogether when they instituted the policy of not baptizing the children of cohabiting or married gay folk. That was the final straw for me.

It was not like I had fully believed in Mormonism since about 1999/2000, but the process of exiting was not a quick one for me. It was much faster for my wife, who suddenly binged on Mormon history reading and then decided she was done with it. To this day I do not feel like an ex-Mormon. I do feel like an ex-LDS person. It is mostly the LDS Church that I have a beef with. Yes, I do not believe in the traditional sense, but that is not the deal-breaker that the Church's participation in the Culture Wars is.


That is cool--a pretty similar sounding story. I get the policy change being a final straw. Those were pathetic policies to add.

I hear everyone on this..but as Kish said that I finally understand in all my arguments with Scott Lloyd..that I am not ex-mormon..but perhaps more ex ..LDS. It wouldn't make sense to anyone but all of us. You guys keep me real.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:08 am 
God

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Craig Paxton wrote:
Stem wrote:
Will's the most prophetic person I know. Years ago on this board he told me before I ever knew it, that I'd leave the church (I mean deep down I had my suspicions and considered it a possibility). He said it as an insult, I think, but he was right. I'm out.

Come to think of it, it probably didn't take a genius or a prophet to see it and say it. It just took someone willing to say it. There's something to be said for that, I suppose.


You're out??????? Seriously? I need to buy you a drink!
Well...hell's bells..where is MY drink Craig...??? Where is that damn margarita I have been lookin' for?? :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:28 pm 
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candygal wrote:
I hear everyone on this..but as Kish said that I finally understand in all my arguments with Scott Lloyd..that I am not ex-mormon..but perhaps more ex ..LDS. It wouldn't make sense to anyone but all of us. You guys keep me real.


Thanks for pointing this out, candygal. In my view this is a very serious issue, perhaps one of the most serious issues that so-called ex-Mormons grapple with. As I have argued in the past, and continue to work out, one of the unusual aspects of the ex-Mo experience is the intertwined issues of identity and religiosity. The LDS Church has been so successful at isolating its members from the outside world in certain ways that many come to feel that freedom from the LDS Church must mean freedom from Mormonism and freedom from religious belief altogether. What does one do in this conundrum?

Well, I don't want to overdramatize it, as many find their way and it would be wrong to consider ex-Mormon identity or a-religiosity to be negative outcomes. Not everyone, however, is personally satisfied with such outcomes. I fall into that category. Others may too. Speaking for myself, this has sent me on a personal quest to re-contextualize Mormonism, and interrogate LDS assumptions about what that means. Steven Shields' Many Paths of the Restoration is helpful in that regard, and so is a broader education on the history of Christianity and religious debates in the centuries leading up to Joseph Smith.

I feel like there are other options. Obviously it is baked into the LDS point of view that there are not. But inasmuch as the LDS mindset tries to hold its members captive by making them feel like there are no other options, and that there is no dignified way to depart from LDS authority, I feel it is absolutely necessary to elucidate the landscape that falls outside the smoke and mirrors the LDS Church has set up.

When I say this, I am not accusing the LDS Church of some kind of conspiracy, or saying that this kind of thing was perpetrated with malicious intent. From another perspective one might call this part of the genius of LDS Mormonism--that it succeeds at monopolizing the mindset of its members to an extent that is likely to hold them in the faith.

The problem, of course, is that the explosion of information has undermined that once formidable doctrinal and social matrix. And yet, it still succeeds to the extent of making Mormon people feel like their aporia, the block or void they feel upon discovering the brittleness of their old belief system, is actually the emptiness of all things Mormon and religion in general. So, what to do but not to do religion anymore?

And that's OK. If that is what you want. It is perfectly valid. Others remain unsettled, however, and they should have better options.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
My comment was about the personal attack aspect of the word, however, as the second paragraph of my post indicated:

Quote:
The comments on august 3, 2018, calling a female poster "a venomous ____" and "a total ____" are still in the Sam Young thread in Terrestrial. But mods have explained that if you call a person "a little troll" in Terrestrial, the term will get deleted or the post moved to Telestial because that's a personal attack. Sometimes I can't figure out the rules.)

Whether the word censor is on or off seems irrelevant to deciding whether calling a female poster a ____ is a personal attack or not.

You're correct.

Quote:
Or is use of the word censor considered sufficient to eliminate a personal attack?

No.

Quote:
It would be ironic that the worst attacks, which are completely inferable from context, are considered not attacks by a technicality of covering some letters.

Such irony doesn't exist, because covering some letters do not transform personal attacks into NOT being personal attacks.

Quote:
Maybe I just don't understand the rule, so i appreciate any clarification you might be willing to offer.

Here's the clarification: It happens so often that I can't keep up. I don't have the psychic energy, so the word-censor has to suffice as being "better than nothing."

_________________
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--kairos, 08-08-2018


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:

Quote:
Maybe I just don't understand the rule, so i appreciate any clarification you might be willing to offer.

Here's the clarification: It happens so often that I can't keep up. I don't have the psychic energy, so the word-censor has to suffice as being "better than nothing."

Thank you, Dr. Shades, for your response. I did acknowledge your point above in a later post when I said
Quote:
...and I understand the mods can't be everywhere...

I apologize if my understanding of that aspect of the situation didn't come through in the post you quoted, that was not my intention.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Thank you, Dr. Shades, for your response. I did acknowledge your point above in a later post when I said
Quote:
...and I understand the mods can't be everywhere...

I apologize if my understanding of that aspect of the situation didn't come through in the post you quoted, that was not my intention.

It's all good.

_________________
"[Elder] Pearson says he uses a 'black box' for those issues that bother him. . . He forgot to mention that his black box has gotten so big he had to put an addition onto his house."

--kairos, 08-08-2018


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:51 pm 
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How is it all good, Shades?

I've read the previous exchanges and comments here. It was me who was once again called a ____ on this board. Let me be complete in my reporting. "Total ____", "venomous ____" and was told I was "circle jerking" myself off, followed by "____ you" and "____ YOU!!"

I didn't report it the first time, although Lemmie raised the issue of the first incidence in Prison. She has once again raised the issue about female slurs being used as personal attacks here, another instance where I didn't report the offensive comments.

And why? Because of exactly how this has been received by you on this particular thread. You say,

Quote:
Here's the clarification: It happens so often that I can't keep up. I don't have the psychic energy, so the word-censor has to suffice as being "better than nothing."


No one expects you to keep up with everything. I've lost count of how many times I have commented that you of all people should be able to come to the board that you yourself have created and enjoy it like the rest of the community.

Here, you have got a report right on this thread. You've got the language that was used and the location. I see no indication that you've taken time to examine the exchanges that Lemmie's report on this thread identified.

Have you acted on this report? Examined the exchanges in question and if so, I should like to know what your determination was. Do the comments constitute a moveable personal attack or not? Have you decided that the filthy words in question were warranted within the context of the exchanges in which they took place?

Where I come from, the word ____ is the most abusive and filthy female slur in existence. How is this warranted under any circumstance?

I have no problem whatsoever when other posters become exasperated or annoyed with me and choose to swear in their posts. I find it incredibly offensive to be called a hight tier filthy, vulgar, and pornographic female slur and particularly when you yourself have taken a report about it on this very thread and left the issue without address and close with "It's all good".

It's not all good. It's not even close to all good.

You know what was said. You know where it was said. Where is your determination?

_________________
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb


Stay close to the people who feel like sunlight ~ Arsu Shaikh


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Stem wrote:
That is cool--a pretty similar sounding story. I get the policy change being a final straw. Those were pathetic policies to add.


Same here. The November 2015 policy was the last straw. I contacted a lawyer and had my name officially removed. I payed hell with my extended family for it, but I don't care. I can't be apart of an organiztion that treats families and little children in such as way.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:00 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
I've read the previous exchanges and comments here. It was me who was once again called a ____ on this board. Let me be complete in my reporting. "Total ____", "venomous ____" and was told I was "circle jerking" myself off, followed by "____ you" and "____ YOU!!"


Ouch, you sure have a real nack for bringing out the best in some. Were you more offended with the language or satisfied with bringing one to that level of frustration?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:20 am 
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moksha wrote:
Clark Gobel wrote:
The 17th-century grammar in the Book of Mormon is one that really hasn't been grappled with by critics for instance.

Clark makes an excellent point, Mormon critics would be totally unprepared to cope with the Nephites being present in the 1600s and potentially interacting with the Jamestown colonists or even being present to greet the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock. 17th Century grammar bodeth ill for Mormon critics.


To be clear, and I thought I made this explicit there, this deals just with Joseph as author not with whether it’s historical. Indeed I explicitly criticized those who claimed it entailed the latter.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:46 am 
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RockSlider wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
I've read the previous exchanges and comments here. It was me who was once again called a ____ on this board. Let me be complete in my reporting. "Total ____", "venomous ____" and was told I was "circle jerking" myself off, followed by "____ you" and "____ YOU!!"


Ouch, you sure have a real nack for bringing out the best in some. Were you more offended with the language or satisfied with bringing one to that level of frustration?
So it is HER fault someone called her a ____? I can't believe your post. What a disgusting thing to say.

Dr. Shades, please. I broke my commitment to not report because what Rockslider is implying here is sickening. Please move his filth.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:59 am 
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Will Schyrver wrote:
Tyrannical repression of the pure democracy of an unfettered internet is an existential imperative for the controlling interests of the empire.

Will has certainly come a long way since that C-word stuff. Readers would be well served by donning a tweed jacket with suede patches on the sleeves to fully appreciate the new William Schyrver. Baying at the moon is optional.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:01 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
To be clear, and I thought I made this explicit there, this deals just with Joseph as author not with whether it’s historical. Indeed I explicitly criticized those who claimed it entailed the latter.

Thank you, Clark, for that clarification.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:21 am 
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moksha wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
To be clear, and I thought I made this explicit there, this deals just with Joseph as author not with whether it’s historical. Indeed I explicitly criticized those who claimed it entailed the latter.

Thank you, Clark, for that clarification.

Hi Clark I can't find where your comment came from! Is it a different thread? I have an interest in Carmack's methodology so I wanted to read your comments about the 17th century grammar theory. Do you have a link?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:30 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Hi Clark I can't find where your comment came from! Is it a different thread? I have an interest in Carmack's methodology so I wanted to read your comments about the 17th century grammar theory. Do you have a link?


It's kind of blurred between threads. And I've been wasting far too much time on forums this week for various reasons - so it's all a bit blurred in my memory. However some of the discussion was in the "State of Mormon Apologetics" thread towards the end. Here's the comment I was referring to.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/708 ... 1209842184

and

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/708 ... 1209842192


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:51 am 
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One wonders how Joseph got the text if it is a 16th/17th century work. I do like this idea, in any case. There are many things unexplained here, but there are with any theory of the book’s origins.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:19 am 
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What I've always loved most about message boards is the way they document happenings and humanity.

This thread is a beautiful example.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my adult daughter in preparing her for some interactions with my Utah family. We we were talking about how to effectively love them and care about them despite all the circumstances and what their different beliefs might mean for us personally.

At a fitting point she said, "Well, Mormonsim is one of the most delusional and narcissistic cultures on the planet."

She's a fairly even-headed person who is careful not to jump to verbal conclusions and who uses a lot of academic speech. It's not common for her to make sweeping claims like that. She's done a lot of reading and a lot of travel.

It's always interesting to me when message boards record the narcissism and the delusions. They're not unique to Mormonsim (and of course my daughter knows that), but the Mormon flavor is so familiar that it's hard not to start going down the road of analyzing all the thinking errors, paranoia, and unsubstantiated conclusions and then to think about why people thought they had enough evidence to support one of their many beliefs, etc.

You know, not that this Mormon drama doesn't feel very real to a lot of people, but there are many many people in this world who are dealing with real problems, and many of them are Mormon. I don't know that this guy's real problems are about losing a venue for his work.

(And who could ever have the "psychic energy" to keep up with harm that happens on these boards? That would be impossible. These places are a fascinating dump. I love them except when I don't.)

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Discussions Disrupts Mormon Apologetics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:55 am 
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ClarkGoble wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Hi Clark I can't find where your comment came from! Is it a different thread? I have an interest in Carmack's methodology so I wanted to read your comments about the 17th century grammar theory. Do you have a link?


It's kind of blurred between threads. And I've been wasting far too much time on forums this week for various reasons - so it's all a bit blurred in my memory. However some of the discussion was in the "State of Mormon Apologetics" thread towards the end. Here's the comment I was referring to.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/708 ... 1209842184

and

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/708 ... 1209842192

Thanks for the links, Clark. I didn't realize the quote didn't even come from this board, let alone a thread in this forum. No wonder i couldn't find it.


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