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 Post subject: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:46 am 
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Denson claims Bishop is a lifelong sexual predator and that he confessed as much to his ecclesiastical leader in the late 1970s.

In 1984, the statute of limitations for rape in Utah was four years. The suit, however, claims the statute of limitations for fraud has not run out because Denson first learned the church had taken no action against Bishop in December 2017.

The lawsuit claims Denson made 10 reports about Bishop to various LDS leaders over the years without learning if any action had been taken against him.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... -suit.html

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Mr. Oaks,

I'd like to take a moment to tell you that you're a disgusting man and that you've spent your talent defending lies and sweeping dirt under the rug. You should be ashamed of yourself. You, Mr. Oaks, have hurt this planet by spreading and fostering lies.

The world will be a better place once you're gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:39 am 
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So it seems like her claim is that the statue on a civil claim should be tolled because of the church mislead her into believing that it would do something about Bishop and that, had she not been so mislead, she would have filed a timely lawsuit.

But the questions then are how did the church mislead her and how did that fraud damage.

I don't think there's much question that she told the church about Bishop, perhaps 10 times as she claims, but what did the church say to her in response? We know that in one instance, a bishop didn't forward anything to the church because he couldn't believe that Bishop would have done such a thing. But what did he tell her, as not doing anything in itself is not fraud.

Put it this way, if I go to HR and complain that a co-worker, even a supervisor, is sexually harassing me, and they say, "Ok, we'll look into it" but then nothing happens and I never hear anything back, that won't justify extending or tolling the statute of limitations. That I complained 10 times with the same response wouldn't make a difference.

On the other hand, if the response was, "Please don't do anything else. Give us a chance, we'll hire an outside investigator, we'll take care of it and make sure nothing happens again, and we'll even make you whole, but just give us some time." And then nothing happens, they were lying and trying to cover it up, and really trying to buy time for the limitations period to expire, then there may be grounds to extend that period. But it wouldn't be a sure thing, and more importantly, there would be a point at which a reasonable person should be able to conclude that it was bs. In other words, while the statue may be tolled, it wouldn't be for 20 years.

Also, in most cases where a statue of limitations is tolled for fraud, it's not because there was fraud surrounding whether or not remedial measures would be taken, but rather fraud to hide the hide from the victim the actual misconduct or damages. Say, for example, we enter into a contract for personal services. The statute of limitations for breach is four years. I breach in a way that damages you, and not only do I not tell you about the breach, but I also go out of my way to actively hide it. Not only do I lie every time you ask about it, but if someone else brings it up, I threaten to sue them for defamation. (Think Lance Armstrong.) Then, after 5 years, you discover my breach and the fact that, but for my affirmative actions to hide it, you would have discovered it within the limitations period and filed suit. That would like justify tolling the statute.

Here, she was aware of the assault, as she experienced it first hand. So it's not like the church did anything to hide it from her. At most, the church tricked her into not pursuing it civilly or criminally. But for 20+ years? And how was she damaged by the church's actions or inaction? Were her damages worse because Bishop wasn't excommunicated or disciplined? Were they were because he may have gone on to victimize others.

None of this absolves the church from any wrongdoing. I'm sympathetic to her. But she has a real uphill battle and hurdle with her lawsuit.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:48 pm 
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So Denson complained about Bishop to ten different LDS authorities over a course of decades, and apparently not one of them believed her or ran the matter up the chain of authority. whether Bishop was questioned about it or not. Either the patriarchy was shielding one of its most depraved members--what everyone seems to want to believe--or all of these ecclesiastical leaders had simply concluded Denson was nucking futs. The latter still could speak very ill of them--perhaps an unbiased bishop, stake president, or GA would have launched an in-depth investigation into Bishop's administration of the MTC. Or it could be that these leaders' conclusions about Denson were entirely reasonable. It's one thing to decry the notion of "shaming" a rape accuser; however, if the lawsuit survives the 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, Denson's credibility, her grasp on reality, will necessarily become a pivotal issue in the case. And she didn't exist in a bubble in the MTC--she had a companion, a district of other missionaries with whom she attended classes, and a branch president who would have been in the loop concerning any counseling she was receiving. Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:08 pm 
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esodije wrote:
Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?

Maybe!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:11 pm 
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I read McKenna's response to the Church's motion to dismiss.

It seems to me that what she is arguing is that:

1. When Joseph Bishop was mission president of Argentina in the 1970's, he confessed his prior sexual predations to Elder Wells, the area authority.

2. After confessing his sexual predations to Elder Wells, the Church was on notice that Bishop was a danger to young women.

3. In spite of this, the Church put Joseph Bishop in charge of hundreds, if not thousands, of young women when they made him MTC president.

4. Joseph Bishop raped McKenna while he was president of the MTC.

5. McKenna did not find out that Joseph Bishop confessed his sins to Elder Wells until December of 2017 when she interviewed him.

6. The statute of limitations was tolled during this time period.

Although other legal theories may fail, I expect the fraud allegation , at a minimum, will survive the church's motion to dismiss.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:20 pm 
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esodije wrote:
So Denson complained about Bishop to ten different LDS authorities over a course of decades, and apparently not one of them believed her or ran the matter up the chain of authority. whether Bishop was questioned about it or not. Either the patriarchy was shielding one of its most depraved members--what everyone seems to want to believe--or all of these ecclesiastical leaders had simply concluded Denson was nucking futs. The latter still could speak very ill of them--perhaps an unbiased bishop, stake president, or GA would have launched an in-depth investigation into Bishop's administration of the MTC. Or it could be that these leaders' conclusions about Denson were entirely reasonable. It's one thing to decry the notion of "shaming" a rape accuser; however, if the lawsuit survives the 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, Denson's credibility, her grasp on reality, will necessarily become a pivotal issue in the case. And she didn't exist in a bubble in the MTC--she had a companion, a district of other missionaries with whom she attended classes, and a branch president who would have been in the loop concerning any counseling she was receiving. Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?


I am certainly interested in what they might have to say.

We already know that McKenna's Spanish instructor at the MTC remembers her after all these years.

This is in the BYU police reports of their investigation late last year.

They called this Spanish instructor, and she remembers being called out of Spanish class on a number of occasions. (Amazing that this would stick in her mind after so long. The police do not include in their reports what it might have been about McKenna being called out of class that was memorable.)

Also, another pivotal figure is McKenna's bishop in 1987, to whom she reported the abuse by Joseph Bishop at the MTC.

According to McKenna, her bishop, Ron Leavitt, contacted Elder Carlos Asay about the issue and set up an appointment where McKenna met with Elder Asay and reported it to him, as well. Elder Asay said he would investigate and get back to her. But he did not.

According to Ron Leavitt, McKenna came to him around the relevant time period and reported that Joseph Bishop had taken her (and perhaps another sister) down into his office in the basement and showed them some pornography. Joseph Bishop said he thought McKenna was neurotic and he did not believe her claims and took no action.

This was said by Ron Leavitt in his interview with KUTV aired Thursday, March 22, 2018. Strangely, in his interview, he added that he had been contacted at least three times by church leaders in the past week and half about the issue. The reporter did not follow up on what those phone calls were regarding, or why there was a need to contact him "at least three times" over what seems a simple version of events.

This just in--McKenna maintains she met Elder Asay at her ward building on a week night. An independent witness has been located who corroborates that McKenna and Elder Carlos Asay were both at that ward building during the relevant time period.

What are the odds?

And what might this say about Ron Leavitt's credibility?

Not to mention the content of those "at least three" phone calls from church leaders?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:01 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Although other legal theories may fail, I expect the fraud allegation, at a minimum, will survive the church's motion to dismiss.

Not in Utah it won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Yeah, so one of Denson’s MTC instructors remembers her; so, I’ll wager, do various missionaries who had even more interactions with her. The curious thing is that none of the allegations even speaks of her MTC companion, yet we know she had one. Have Denson’s lawyers even mentioned the companion, much less tried to account for the latter’s whereabouts when the relevant events were going down? Why, of all the places where Bishop, were he a serial sexual predator, could have operated (WSC, the BAN Mission, BYU), have the only concrete allegations come from the MTC, undoubtedly the most difficult environment among those mentioned for a perv to ply his avocation without being discovered? It’s nice that Denson’s story dovetails so neatly with the narrative that the LDS church is depraved and protects sexual predators, but I’m not convinced the actual facts of this case will bear the weight of that narrative. At some point Denson’s mental-health history will intrude. At some point a long succession of accusers will, a la Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, have to materialize to substantiate the history of his “preversions.”


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:36 pm 
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esodije wrote:
Yeah, so one of Denson’s MTC instructors remembers her; so, I’ll wager, do various missionaries who had even more interactions with her. The curious thing is that none of the allegations even speaks of her MTC companion, yet we know she had one. Have Denson’s lawyers even mentioned the companion, much less tried to account for the latter’s whereabouts when the relevant events were going down? Why, of all the places where Bishop, were he a serial sexual predator, could have operated (WSC, the BAN Mission, BYU), have the only concrete allegations come from the MTC, undoubtedly the most difficult environment among those mentioned for a perv to ply his avocation without being discovered? It’s nice that Denson’s story dovetails so neatly with the narrative that the LDS church is depraved and protects sexual predators, but I’m not convinced the actual facts of this case will bear the weight of that narrative. At some point Denson’s mental-health history will intrude. At some point a long succession of accusers will, a la Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, have to materialize to substantiate the history of his “preversions.”


What about the recording of Bishop confessing. I am no lawyer, but it seems something like that would carry weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:22 am 
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Not in Utah it won't.

It's what Elder Henry Kissinger would call realpolitik, or as the Church calls it, "the unwritten order of things".

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:52 am 
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consiglieri wrote:
This just in--McKenna maintains she met Elder Asay at her ward building on a week night. An independent witness has been located who corroborates that McKenna and Elder Carlos Asay were both at that ward building during the relevant time period.

What are the odds?

I'd wonder that oo.

And what might this say about Ron Leavitt's credibility?

Not to mention the content of those "at least three" phone calls from church leaders?


Unless there is some other reason to show that they had a personal meeting, I don't know that such corroboration helps. It could be, if McKenna was making it up, that she used Asay's name because she knew he was there available and identified as a general leader at that time. Somehow she was given the impression that he would be one who would meet with her if the problem was communicated upwards.

I'd love to see the meeting between the two corroborated though. I tend to think it happened...that the Church knew about it, and has record of it. Why the Church went to the former bishop multiple times to discuss it remains very suspicious to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:28 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
I read McKenna's response to the Church's motion to dismiss.

It seems to me that what she is arguing is that:

1. When Joseph Bishop was mission president of Argentina in the 1970's, he confessed his prior sexual predations to Elder Wells, the area authority.

2. After confessing his sexual predations to Elder Wells, the Church was on notice that Bishop was a danger to young women.

3. In spite of this, the Church put Joseph Bishop in charge of hundreds, if not thousands, of young women when they made him MTC president.

4. Joseph Bishop raped McKenna while he was president of the MTC.

5. McKenna did not find out that Joseph Bishop confessed his sins to Elder Wells until December of 2017 when she interviewed him.

6. The statute of limitations was tolled during this time period.

Although other legal theories may fail, I expect the fraud allegation , at a minimum, will survive the church's motion to dismiss.


The church's failure to disclose it's alleged knowledge of Bishop's propensity to engage in this type of behavior isn't enough in itself to make it fraud.

She would have to argue that the Church also mislead her about it in order to induce her into some action that she otherwise would not have taken. One way to show this is with evidence that the Church at some point told her it had no such prior knowledge. Another potential option would be that the mere fact of making Bishop MTC President was an implicit representation that his background was clean. I think there might be merit to that, but I also suspect it's still an uphill battle.

Still, she would have to say that she relied on the representation to her detriment. But the detriment isn't merely being assaulted. The reliance would have to go to why she didn't file a lawsuit against the Church earlier. She could claim that she didn't file earlier because, due to the misrepresentation, she didn't have reason to believe that the Church was also at fault until just recently. She would probably have to show that a claim against the Church on some kind of strict or vicarious liability theory was not tenable at the time. And she might have to explain why she didn't sue Bishop in an individual capacity earlier.

In other words, she knew she was assaulted back when it happened. The clock for filing a lawsuit against Bishop and the Church began then. I don't think she can toll the statute against Bishop. And to toll the statute against the Church, she'll have to show that the Church mislead her to think that it was somehow not liable.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:35 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
I read McKenna's response to the Church's motion to dismiss.

It seems to me that what she is arguing is that:

1. When Joseph Bishop was mission president of Argentina in the 1970's, he confessed his prior sexual predations to Elder Wells, the area authority.

2. After confessing his sexual predations to Elder Wells, the Church was on notice that Bishop was a danger to young women.

3. In spite of this, the Church put Joseph Bishop in charge of hundreds, if not thousands, of young women when they made him MTC president.

4. Joseph Bishop raped McKenna while he was president of the MTC.

5. McKenna did not find out that Joseph Bishop confessed his sins to Elder Wells until December of 2017 when she interviewed him.

6. The statute of limitations was tolled during this time period.

Although other legal theories may fail, I expect the fraud allegation , at a minimum, will survive the church's motion to dismiss.


Thanks, Consig. Do you have a link to the response? I thought the motion failed to distinguish among (1) What did Denson need to know in order for the clock to start running; (2) whether and for how long the clock was paused because of fraudulent concealment; and (3) The elements of Denson’s civil fraud claim. I’m wondering if her lawyers did a better job of that?

The problem I see with any tolling argument under fraudulent concealment based on the 1970s confession is establishing that the church had a duty to inform her of the contents of that confession.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:38 pm 
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If Bishop confessed to Robert E. Wells in 1979 that he did anything more than choke his own chicken, I’m satisfied that he would have been released immediately as mission president. (Any accusers yet from Buenos Aires? I didn’t think so.) And he would never have been allowed to come within five miles of the MTC. As for Bishop’s “confessions” on Denson’s recordings, how hard is it to understand that he was a doty 85-year-old two days removed from heart surgery and still on post-op pain meds? Anyone with even partial control of his faculties, guilty or innocent, would have terminated the interview immediately when it became clear that it was obtained on false pretenses and that the “interviewer” was laboring to collect as many incriminating statements as possible. Was Bishop even fazed by that revelation, even after Denson spent the better part of three hours trying to get him to confess to attempting to rape her (and still somehow failing)? Denson’s history is a hell of a lot more germane to this case than Bishop’s.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:40 am 
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esodije wrote:
If Bishop confessed to Robert E. Wells in 1979 that he did anything more than choke his own chicken, I’m satisfied that he would have been released immediately as mission president.
How have you managed to satisfy yourself of that?

Quote:
Any accusers yet from Buenos Aires? I didn’t think so.
So absence of evidence IS evidence of absence?

Quote:
And he would never have been allowed to come within five miles of the MTC. As for Bishop’s “confessions” on Denson’s recordings, how hard is it to understand that he was a doty 85-year-old two days removed from heart surgery and still on post-op pain meds? Anyone with even partial control of his faculties, guilty or innocent, would have terminated the interview immediately when it became clear that it was obtained on false pretenses and that the “interviewer” was laboring to collect as many incriminating statements as possible. Was Bishop even fazed by that revelation, even after Denson spent the better part of three hours trying to get him to confess to attempting to rape her (and still somehow failing)?
What about his confessions to the police department, which they said they would have prosecuted were the timeline not so long?

Quote:
Denson’s history is a hell of a lot more germane to this case than Bishop’s.
Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:49 am 
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esodije wrote:
And she didn't exist in a bubble in the MTC--she had a companion, a district of other missionaries with whom she attended classes, and a branch president who would have been in the loop concerning any counseling she was receiving. Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?

consiglieri wrote:
I am certainly interested in what they might have to say.

We already know that McKenna's Spanish instructor at the MTC remembers her after all these years.

This is in the BYU police reports of their investigation late last year.

They called this Spanish instructor, and she remembers being called out of Spanish class on a number of occasions. (Amazing that this would stick in her mind after so long. The police do not include in their reports what it might have been about McKenna being called out of class that was memorable.)

esodije wrote:
Yeah, so one of Denson’s MTC instructors remembers her; so, I’ll wager, do various missionaries who had even more interactions with her. The curious thing is that none of the allegations even speaks of her MTC companion, yet we know she had one. Have Denson’s lawyers even mentioned the companion, much less tried to account for the latter’s whereabouts when the relevant events were going down?

You asked what others who knew her might have to say, and consiglieri gave some very interesting information. I don't understand why you want to dismiss that information without addressing it, and instead search for others who knew her. Are you looking for a particular result?

ihaq wrote:
esodije wrote:
If Bishop confessed to Robert E. Wells in 1979 that he did anything more than choke his own chicken, I’m satisfied that he would have been released immediately as mission president.
How have you managed to satisfy yourself of that?
That's a big one for me, also. If the court case is investigating, among other things, whether the LDS church responded properly, then not considering an issue because one assumes the LDS church responded properly seems quite a presumption. If that opinion is based on belief and testimony, I understand, but it certainly isn't a presumption the courts would accept.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:04 am 
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In my day, the adage was "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Denson's claim is that she was raped in, of all places, the MTC, by, of all people, the MTC president. That seems to qualify on the "extraordinary claim" score, at least to anyone who was actually a missionary in the MTC and is familiar with its layout and routine in the 80s. But what many of you are saying is that there must be extraordinary evidence to disprove the rape claim--that you will believe the very worst things possible about the Mormon church and its hierarchy until and unless those things are proved conclusively false. That's what they used to call in law school "proving a negative," which is obviously impossible to pull off as an evidentiary matter. (President Obama was good at trying to do so: "That trillion-dollar 'stimulus' bill didn't cause the economy to boom? Well, just imagine how bad the economy would have got if we hadn't spent that money!")

You may say, "She made the accusation. He confessed to being a perv. What is there to question?" Well, from my vantage point, especially after listening to every excruciating minute of the audio recording, she's a nutcase and he's senile--there's a lot to question. She accused her ex-husband of having banged 14 different new female converts (or at least some of them supposedly were) during their marriage. If it turned out that wasn't true, do you think it might have some bearing on her ability to grasp reality in other areas?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:37 pm 
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esodije wrote:
In my day, the adage was "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Denson's claim is that she was raped in, of all places, the MTC, by, of all people, the MTC president. That seems to qualify on the "extraordinary claim" score, at least to anyone who was actually a missionary in the MTC and is familiar with its layout and routine in the 80s. But what many of you are saying is that there must be extraordinary evidence to disprove the rape claim--that you will believe the very worst things possible about the Mormon church and its hierarchy until and unless those things are proved conclusively false. That's what they used to call in law school "proving a negative," which is obviously impossible to pull off as an evidentiary matter. (President Obama was good at trying to do so: "That trillion-dollar 'stimulus' bill didn't cause the economy to boom? Well, just imagine how bad the economy would have got if we hadn't spent that money!")

You may say, "She made the accusation. He confessed to being a perv. What is there to question?" Well, from my vantage point, especially after listening to every excruciating minute of the audio recording, she's a nutcase and he's senile--there's a lot to question. She accused her ex-husband of having banged 14 different new female converts (or at least some of them supposedly were) during their marriage. If it turned out that wasn't true, do you think it might have some bearing on her ability to grasp reality in other areas?

I think the Church trying to settle “behind closed doors” is suggestive there’s fire with the smoke.

His confessions, the corroboration about the weird little basement room with a bed, the corroboration about his singling her out and removing her from lessons, the other victim, all likewise lend credence to the accusations. As does his resignation from the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:11 pm 
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I have a question wrote:
I think the Church trying to settle “behind closed doors” is suggestive there’s fire with the smoke.

His confessions, the corroboration about the weird little basement room with a bed, the corroboration about his singling her out and removing her from lessons, the other victim, all likewise lend credence to the accusations. As does his resignation from the Church.

Contrast that with these assumptions that do not rise to the level of evidence:

esodeji wrote:
If Bishop confessed to Robert E. Wells in 1979 that he did anything more than choke his own chicken, I’m satisfied that he would have been released immediately as mission president. (Any accusers yet from Buenos Aires? I didn’t think so.) And he would never have been allowed to come within five miles of the MTC.

So, on the one hand there is corroborating evidence. On the other hand, there is the assumption that the LDS church would have behaved properly, if something had actually happened. Presuming the conclusion is not evidence.


Last edited by Lemmie on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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