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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:58 am 
God

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So, in summary, missionaries are an inadequate resource for talking to non members with questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:59 am 
God

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moinmoin wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
If he has no patience for bitterness, I wonder that he has any genuine interest in anthropology at all. I would think that someone interested in human phenomena would also seek an understanding of the dark side of human systems, Mormonism included.


He is interested in all of it, but prefers to dwell on the positive instead of solely on the negative. It was obvious that he has read the negative as well, but his fascination stems from the positives, not the negatives. Obviously, there are those whose fascination stems from the negative, almost exclusively so.

I am intrigued by how the various aspects change in weighted significance, depending on the perspective of person, time, and geography.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:32 am 
God
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moinmoin wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
Of course one day's worth of training is insufficient, but it is better than none.


Agreed. I don't expect the mission president to agree to this, and I think it would be a huge undertaking to do well and "do no harm" given the wide range of experience, exposure, and background of the missionaries as a whole. Many of them have zero exposure to any of the complicated issues, so throwing them at them in a day isn't a great idea, in my view.

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And no one is suggesting the missionaries spend a lot of their schedule figuring out these issues but we both know how much free time missionaries have since they are no longer tracting. How about when they are not actually involved in trying to find new people to talk to over the internet, they use that same internet to learn more about the history of their religion?


Or, the Church could set out to teach them about these things in a structured, standardized way, rather than simply cut them loose to look up these things on their own.


I really, really, hope that my tone doesn't come off as confrontational. I appreciate your viewpoint and thoughts. I know it's hard to read tone on the internet. And this issue has probably been hashed-out thousands of times already. But here it goes:

When is the proper time to teach members about the complicated issues?

What has the church done to structure the teaching of complicated issues?

Why does the church continue to teach whitewashed/untrue versions when it could talk about complicated issues?

From my perspective, it seems like a lot of people seem to find out about these complicated issues in their 20's, 30's, and 40's, and feel deceived by the church's teachings. They feel like the church has lied to them by omission and commission. I was wondering what steps the church is taking to correct that.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:12 am 
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CameronMO wrote:
I really, really, hope that my tone doesn't come off as confrontational. I appreciate your viewpoint and thoughts. I know it's hard to read tone on the internet. And this issue has probably been hashed-out thousands of times already. But here it goes:


No confrontational tone detected on my end!

Quote:
When is the proper time to teach members about the complicated issues?


Ideally? In the home, while growing up. I was always exposed to them on both sides of my family growing up, and my own children have been as well. Not as a pursposeful thing, really, but rather just a natural outgrowth of conversation. This is not the norm within the Church, for sure, and most members don't have the background even if the desire were there.

Short of that? In church meetings, in a faithful setting, but given that the Church hasn't sought to provide resources to do this institutionally, it really depends on "leader roulette" and luck of the draw. People in my sphere of influence have had a much different background of faithful exposure than many other people.

Quote:
What has the church done to structure the teaching of complicated issues?


See above. Precious little. The gospel topics essays are a small start, but they are more there just to be there, first and foremost --- so they can be pointed to as needed. Another primary objective of them is plausible deniability. They are by design anonymous, and attempt to thread the needle without taking a stand.

The man I spoke with pointed out, when we were discussing the essays, that not only are they harder to find than necessary (a point I made), but you also have to click additionally to read the full article. At first, you have a small blurb or "abstract," and it takes an additional step to get to the full thing.

Quote:
Why does the church continue to teach whitewashed/untrue versions when it could talk about complicated issues?


I think it's the spirit of Col. Jeppson in "A Few Good Men" --- a fear that people "can't handle the truth." It's misguided, and causes problems by its nature.

Quote:
From my perspective, it seems like a lot of people seem to find out about these complicated issues in their 20's, 30's, and 40's, and feel deceived by the church's teachings. They feel like the church has lied to them by omission and commission. I was wondering what steps the church is taking to correct that.


This was a point I made to him. That feeling of betrayal and deception, above all else, is the determinant in "shelf collapse." People's shelves are much, much sturdier if they don't undergo a feeling that they have been deceived or betrayed by the Church. And if they do feel this way, there is not much that can be done by way of reclamation or "saving." It's definitely best to prevent this, and the way to do that is to be open about the "complicated things."


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:10 am 
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I have a question wrote:
So, in summary, missionaries are an inadequate resource for talking to non members with questions.


That's certainly been my experience, over all the years I was a mission leader in a ward.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:32 am 
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moinmoin wrote:
Quote:
I think it's the spirit of Col. Jeppson in "A Few Good Men" --- a fear that people "can't handle the truth." It's misguided, and causes problems by its nature.


So true, my man. So true.

I commented on your thread of this same topic on the other thread. I tried to say this exact thing. The problem is less about the missionaries don't know. It's all about members don't know and have been mislead. Missionaries not knowing is but an effect of the big problem of misleading and being skeptical of the members, by the highest ups.

Quote:
This was a point I made to him. That feeling of betrayal and deception, above all else, is the determinant in "shelf collapse." People's shelves are much, much sturdier if they don't undergo a feeling that they have been deceived or betrayed by the Church. And if they do feel this way, there is not much that can be done by way of reclamation or "saving." It's definitely best to prevent this, and the way to do that is to be open about the "complicated things."


The only reasonable way forward is for the Church to stop what it's doing now and fix it. let's not pretend that having anonymously written essays covers their cabooses after having gone years misleading people and being skeptical of them. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the step the Church took some years ago by starting to address these issues in print. But what has happened since? Most members I see don't know about the essays, aren't sure what their value is if they do know, and have no context to understand why the issue is even being addressed. The knowledge that there are essays to most members who know is merely a signal to say "there are no problems...the church can address any issue out there and come out winner..." That's about it, particularly since the manuals they continue to use continue to push for the old narrative, as its been called.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:45 am 
God
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Moinmoin,

As much as I love to blame the institution of the church for things, I think a portion of the blame, at this point, can be shouldered by the adult members when it comes to being unaware or uninformed, especially given the internet and the easy access to information. There is a large segment of active members for whom "all is well in Zion". Typically we refer to them as chapel Mormons,.

We have people (the chapel Mormons) who do not really care that there are historical problems, who do not care the church does not publish its finances, who do not care that the church spends billions on malls and other buildings, who do not care that the upper leadership is quite well paid, that no one talks about theology anymore, that men run everything, that in a church purported to be run by a prophet of God anything really important is announced by an anonymous online spokesperson. These people only care that they have a local church at which they can worship with others and feel comfortable.

I run into these types frequently. And if by chance we are talking about Mormon history, I almost always get the same question from them. "Why do you care about this stuff?" A question that used to surprise me a lot, until I realized the mind set behind asking it. Typically I respond with, " A more important question is: Why don't you care about it?"

So the dilemma the institutional church faces is: how do they inoculate that portion of membership who do or will have doubts when they encounter a fuller historical picture of the past, when a large portion of their active members simply does not care and does not want to hear it?

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:53 pm 
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moinmoin wrote:
I would be surprised if such a thing were approved


It won't be approved.

moinmoin wrote:
He doesn't have any patience or affinity for bitter apostates or those who mock Mormonism.


And how much experience does he have in this area? Tell him about this site and encourage him to sign up and discuss Mormonism with us. I'd like to see him discuss with Shulem. Maybe he has no patience for those who mock Mormonism because he hasn't experience quality mockery.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:41 pm 
God

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Gadianton wrote:
I'd like to see him discuss with Shulem. Maybe he has no patience for those who mock Mormonism because he hasn't experience quality mockery.


Ya know, you may have hit on somethin' here.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:45 pm 
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moinmoin wrote:
He doesn't have any patience or affinity for bitter apostates or those who mock Mormonism.


Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:02 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
I'd like to see him discuss with Shulem. Maybe he has no patience for those who mock Mormonism because he hasn't experience quality mockery.


Oh my, Nightlion would be proud ... baptism of fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:18 am 
God

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Gadianton wrote:
moinmoin wrote:
He doesn't have any patience or affinity for bitter apostates or those who mock Mormonism.


And how much experience does he have in this area? Tell him about this site and encourage him to sign up and discuss Mormonism with us. I'd like to see him discuss with Shulem. Maybe he has no patience for those who mock Mormonism because he hasn't experience quality mockery.
I wonder how he feels about moinmoin's FairMormon paper then? There's some pretty high quality bitterness and mockery in that.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:58 am 
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Stem wrote:
I have a question wrote:
So, in summary, missionaries are an inadequate resource for talking to non members with questions.


That's certainly been my experience, over all the years I was a mission leader in a ward.


And I have no idea why that should surprise anyone.

The average American high school student couldn't find North Korea on a map.

This is the person we would trust to answer deep questions about a Christian-Masonic Restorationist sect founded in the 19th century?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:46 am 
God

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Lemmie wrote:
I wonder how he feels about moinmoin's FairMormon paper then? There's some pretty high quality bitterness and mockery in that.


Got a link for the paper?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:54 am 
God

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Kishkumen wrote:

And I have no idea why that should surprise anyone.

The average American high school student couldn't find North Korea on a map.

This is the person we would trust to answer deep questions about a Christian-Masonic Restorationist sect founded in the 19th century?


The Average American high school student doesn't sign up to serve a two-year church mission, either. Nor does any other major religion ask that of high-school age youth. It's interesting to contemplate why the LDS do.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:04 am 
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Rev. K wrote:
This is the person we would trust to answer deep questions about a Christian-Masonic Restorationist sect founded in the 19th century?


Which is the reason moinmoin will never get his plan for scholarly hidden discussions approved. If the Church could have it their way, missionaries wouldn't even be able to find Utah on a map. Missionaries are selling bug spray contracts and anything outside of the hard sell is a distraction.

And to a degree, the Church is right about this, and the Internet Mormons are wrong. Moin's celebration over meeting the objective scholar who thinks Mormonism is cool reminds me of the apologist excitement over Margaret Barker. A scholar thinks Mormon temples are scholarly! What greater victory than that?

But how much tithing has Margaret Barker paid over the years?

There's a sucker born every minute. Missionaries aren't sent to teach and preach, but to find the sucker. The discussions could be about lemon trees instead of a church, and the best of the best missionaries should be able to get baptisms out of it.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:15 am 
God

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Meadowchik wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
I wonder how he feels about moinmoin's FairMormon paper then? There's some pretty high quality bitterness and mockery in that.


Got a link for the paper?

From moinmoin's post on p 1:
moinmoin wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
Very interesting. I'm guessing the mission president is Spencer Christensen and its the Arizona Tempe mission? I wish I had been there for your discussion. Please tell me about the link to your B.H. Roberts paper.


You got it!

Here's my paper:

https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... -testimony


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:15 am 
God
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Meadowchik wrote:

The Average American high school student doesn't sign up to serve a two-year church mission, either. Nor does any other major religion ask that of high-school age youth. It's interesting to contemplate why the LDS do.



Probably for the same reason the military allows kids that age.
They are very easy to manipulate and train.
The world was very black and white when I was that young.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:18 am 
God

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Thanks for copying the link for me, Lemmie!


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:23 am 
God

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:

The Average American high school student doesn't sign up to serve a two-year church mission, either. Nor does any other major religion ask that of high-school age youth. It's interesting to contemplate why the LDS do.



Probably for the same reason the military allows kids that age.
They are very easy to manipulate and train.
The world was very black and white when I was that young.


Interesting comparison. How far up do soldiers climb in the ranks as teenagers? Do they get sent as emissaries for the nation states they represent? Are they presented as authorities on that nation state?

The fact that the LDS enlists youth as its representatives may indicate that the substance of Mormon conversion is machine-like and indelicate, that missionary work is assembly-line work.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting and fun afternoon yesterday
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:24 am 
God

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moinmoin wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
Very interesting. I'm guessing the mission president is Spencer Christensen and its the Arizona Tempe mission? I wish I had been there for your discussion. Please tell me about the link to your B.H. Roberts paper.


You got it!

Here's my paper:

https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... -testimony


This is the standard moinmoin sets for people questioning BH Roberts faith or loss of.
Quote:
...if it were confined to an honest examination of the facts.


It is to be hoped he remembers that standard when discussing other topics such as the Book Of Abraham with the guy he mentions in the OP....

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