It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:28 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:17 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:02 pm
Posts: 6477
krose wrote:
Asking for convincing evidence is so very arrogant.


How dare us not go on faith!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:57 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7297
Location: On walkabout
My own crackpot theory is that formons who join other churches have a new community that can replace their former community. As a result, they are less likely to join online communities than are those who don’t join. That’s why atheists are so heavily represented in online communities of formons.

In my case, it was 25 years between leaving the church and identifying as an atheist. During that time, I did a ton of reading about science, mostly biology, cosmology, and physics. From that reading, I was able to see how it was possible for the universe to exist without God. Once I opened mind to that possibility, I saw less and less reason to believe in any flavor of God. Eventually, I could see no good reason for me to believe. And that’s where I’ve been for several years now.

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:09 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 7296
Water Dog wrote:
We could get into the definition debates, conflating agnosticism with atheism, belief vs lack of belief vs belief in a negative, which is always how this tedious conversation goes. For me it usually just boils down to those identifying as "atheists" being arrogant pricks.


Yeah - You're not going to experience too much trouble locating arrogant pricks who self identify as atheist. Given all the parroting and copycat mockery that takes place in sections of this community, it's a great breeding ground for arrogant and pretentious pricks.

To be fair though, theists (of every stripe) have produced some exceptionally arrogant and quite dicky human beings as well. So, there is that.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:45 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 16756
EAllusion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
However, if you want to claim that a God or gods exist outside of our functional reality then I just have to shrug my shoulders because how do you argue against something like that?

- Doc


There's a few ways. The two most important types of atheological argument for the nonexistence of gods are:

1) The definition of a god is incoherent and it is necessarily true that incoherent things cannot exist.

and

2) It's actually reasonable to think things do not exist when you note the lack of evidence for them and the body of evidence that indicates they are products of human imagination. Such things are improbable to exist and the statement "X does not exist" is just another way of saying, "the likelihood X does not exist is sufficiently high that one can be confident in it."

A lot goes into these type of arguments and my one or two sentence summary might sell them short in your mind. I disagree with both, but they are probably have more merit than you think.


Sure. You can try to speak common sense to an esotericist, but they're just going to brush past it like Bruce Smith honing in on a quarterback. That's kind of my point. There are a few posters here, some more refined than others, who simply refuse to deal in reality, and any point, however well reasoned or argued, is quickly brushed aside in order to refocus the argument on their assertions. It's just an endless cavalcade of bull ____, and yet somehow we the atheist are the dicks in the whole affair.

- Doc


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:57 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm
Posts: 1586
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sure. You can try to speak common sense to an esotericist, but they're just going to brush past it like Bruce Smith honing in on a quarterback. That's kind of my point. There are a few posters here, some more refined than others, who simply refuse to deal in reality, and any point, however well reasoned or argued, is quickly brushed aside in order to refocus the argument on their assertions. It's just an endless cavalcade of bull ____, and yet somehow we the atheist are the dicks in the whole affair.

- Doc


In my opinion, most of the declaration of atheists being jerks centers around the lack of respect that some atheists pay to believer's ideas. It is pretty common for atheists to declare beliefs as magical, woo-woo or whatever other pejorative phrase you like. I make no claim to the above practice being inaccurate, just that it reads as highly disrespectful and arrogant, not unlike evangelicals throwing around scientism. This is a debate that is often deeply personal on both sides, thus feelings get hurt quite easily. The most successful debaters I have seen on the topic typically refrain from those kinds of digs and instead just focus on fact based, evidence driven presentations.

You're right that you probably won't win many people over with the arguments, but at least you won't come across as a knob.

_________________
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:10 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1675
For me, this comes back to the need for mo's and evangelicals to force their beliefs onto the population at large. Don't try and save us any more. We will take our chances in a reverse pascal wager sense. It is fine for them to have their magic world view, but as Christopher Hitchens admonished, play with your religious toys inside your own home and not outside. Nevertheless, it doesn't do any good to ridicule the religious as they retrench, usually, when confronted with their utter lack of evidence.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:26 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
It's fascinating to me that there's such a large, vibrant, noisy ex- group for Mormons. A similar sized church group, the Seventh Day Adventists, doesn't have such a large and articulate ex- community.

Does Mormonism produce an unusual number of former members? Does it produce an unusual number of schismatic groups? If so, why?

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:48 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:10 am
Posts: 1407
RockSlider wrote:
krose wrote:
Asking for convincing evidence is so very arrogant.


How dare us not go on faith!

^^ proving my point


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:53 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
Ceeboo wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
We could get into the definition debates, conflating agnosticism with atheism, belief vs lack of belief vs belief in a negative, which is always how this tedious conversation goes. For me it usually just boils down to those identifying as "atheists" being arrogant pricks.


Yeah - You're not going to experience too much trouble locating arrogant pricks who self identify as atheist. Given all the parroting and copycat mockery that takes place in sections of this community, it's a great breeding ground for arrogant and pretentious pricks.

To be fair though, theists (of every stripe) have produced some exceptionally arrogant and quite dicky human beings as well. So, there is that.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Believing and not believing are leaps to conclusions. That's why I stay agnostic. However...

Everyone I know is an atheist, including everyone on this board. Everyone reading this post knows that there are gods they *don't* believe in, therefore they're an atheist to those believers. So is it arrogant to dismiss Vishnu or Thor? Or more arrogant to believe in them? :wink:

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:08 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1675
Maksutov wrote:
It's fascinating to me that there's such a large, vibrant, noisy ex- group for Mormons. A similar sized church group, the Seventh Day Adventists, doesn't have such a large and articulate ex- community.

Does Mormonism produce an unusual number of former members? Does it produce an unusual number of schismatic groups? If so, why?


I think the Mormon phenomenon comes from the grandiose claims it makes. Joseph Smith reached for the mountaintop but instead fell off of a cliff. When I realized that, I investigated christianity in general and found its claims lacking as well. I would say that I am an atheist as to the gods presented by humankind but I still hope in something after this life.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:28 pm 
Savior (mortal ministry)

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:17 am
Posts: 941
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Well, it'd be nice if we can define what we're supposedly rejecting before we're accused of being extremists. For example, I'm fairly confident an uber-hominid occupying a planet near a star called Kolob doesn't exist. However, if you want to claim that a God or gods exist outside of our functional reality then I just have to shrug my shoulders because how do you argue against something like that?

- Doc
:mrgreen: Irrefutable.

_________________
Problems with auto-correct:
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:39 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 7296
Hey Mak! :smile:
Maksutov wrote:
Everyone I know is an atheist, including everyone on this board. Everyone reading this post knows that there are gods they *don't* believe in, therefore they're an atheist to those believers.


Yeah, in addition to other things like "sky daddy", this is one of the most common things that are parroted and trotted out.
Quote:
So is it arrogant to dismiss Vishnu or Thor? Or more arrogant to believe in them? :wink:

In my mind, neither one of your examples are arrogant. They are simply way off topic and have almost nothing to do with what is being discussed on my end - IMO

When I talk about arrogant pretentious pricks, think Bill Maher.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:43 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
Ceeboo wrote:
Hey Mak! :smile:
Maksutov wrote:
Everyone I know is an atheist, including everyone on this board. Everyone reading this post knows that there are gods they *don't* believe in, therefore they're an atheist to those believers.


Yeah, in addition to other things like "sky daddy", this is one of the most common things that are parroted and trotted out.


But it's still true. There are billions in the world who believe in gods that we don't. That makes us atheists regarding those gods. So atheism is practiced selectively, discriminatingly, but still practiced universally. And so the situation is complex. :wink:

As far as prickishness, thanks to the glories of the internet, you can find Youtubes of arrogantprickishness of all colors, creeds and flavors. Youtubers that declare war on each other over just this sort of stuff. I even see agnostics and atheists fight each other over their definitions. I have to think that we must have a pretty good standard of living if people have the luxury of spending so much time on these activities. :lol: Unfortunately, I'm not sure that it solves any problems beyond how to kill time. The saddest example of this sort of endless jabbing I can think of is in India and Pakistan. I read English speaking websites of the region and we have endless cycles of someone leaving a dead pig at a mosque, someone retaliating with a dead cow at a Hindu temple, etc., petty, vicious, pointless, stupid, unproductive...arrogantprickishness. And these are ancient religious cultures.

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Posts: 29218
Location: Off the Deep End
Ceeboo wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
Fool me once...

Yeah - that and I would imagine that atheism provides a soft spot to land in - and live in. But what do I know, I'm not an exM0 or an atheist.

Peace,
Ceeboo


How could atheism provide a soft spot to land in? Will you explain your thinking on that?

_________________
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb


Stay close to the people who feel like sunlight ~ Arsu Shaikh


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:32 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 7296
Hi Jersey Girl! :smile:

Jersey Girl wrote:
How could atheism provide a soft spot to land in? Will you explain your thinking on that?


Someone leaves a faith community like Mormonism - one that is very demanding, very structured, very time consuming, etc - They are quite possibly experiencing a wide range of deep emotions and thoughts (anger, hurt, fear, turmoil, pain, confusion, etc) and they are also potentially dealing with strained relationships involving loved ones.

So are these folks heading over to the Catholic Church to sign up? Are they stopping by the Lutheran Church to investigate? I don't think so!

In my mind, it makes some sense to consider and/or understand why atheism would be a safe destination for some to land in. But, what do I know, I'm a not an ex-Mo or an atheist so I could be just randomly spewing verbal diarrhea.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 am 
God

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:00 pm
Posts: 1132
As someone leaning toward atheism a year after leaving Mormonism, it is because of authority. It's not just that men are fallible and make mistakes, it's the sheer spiritual violence of one person telling another that they stand between them and god. It is ridiculous. Most rational people would not allow this, if not for the time, tradition, and culture that has aggregated over generations, mythologizing the person and their claims.

If a stranger walks up to you and says, "Come with me, I have a message for you from god. If you don't do what I say you will die," how would you respond?

I also wrote a metaphor for it:

In your city's center square, there is a concrete block the size of an operating table. You've been having sharp pains in your side for days, so you head over. Before lying down, you write on the whiteboard; you list your symptoms, name, age, medical history, and sign consent. There is a small machine vending pills and you take one with a free glass of mineral water. Now you lie down on the table, allowing it to mechanically restrain your your ankles, chest, wrists, and forehead. You count backwards from 100, and at 91 you feel yourself fading. All goes black.

Next step: The other side of the board has been read by most adults in town and some children, it states the purpose of the table, it describes the instruments and chemicals available for use, imploring the thorough consultation of the touchscreen for diagnosing and treating the sedated patient. It invites volunteers to use the tools, drugs, and internet.

The pill you took can knock you out for twelve hours, good luck.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:35 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Posts: 29218
Location: Off the Deep End
Ceeboo wrote:
Hi Jersey Girl! :smile:

Jersey Girl wrote:
How could atheism provide a soft spot to land in? Will you explain your thinking on that?


Someone leaves a faith community like Mormonism - one that is very demanding, very structured, very time consuming, etc - They are quite possibly experiencing a wide range of deep emotions and thoughts (anger, hurt, fear, turmoil, pain, confusion, etc) and they are also potentially dealing with strained relationships involving loved ones.

So are these folks heading over to the Catholic Church to sign up? Are they stopping by the Lutheran Church to investigate? I don't think so!

In my mind, it makes some sense to consider and/or understand why atheism would be a safe destination for some to land in. But, what do I know, I'm a not an ex-Mo or an atheist so I could be just randomly spewing verbal diarrhea.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Thanks, Ceebs. I think what you're saying is that atheism can be viewed as a kind of neutral zone.

I think that all of this is far more complex and subjective to the individual than we can ever do justice to on one thread alone or even a hundred threads of this type. Let me list two ways in which I disagree with you.

I have to wonder, if in the minds of the still believing LDS family, they might not view a shift to say, Catholicism, as the better choice because the disaffected LDS family member retains a belief in God. They might see that person as more "reachable". Considering LDS doctrine, there is never a situation when all hope is lost because the belief system contains an after-death workaround for that.

I think more to the point is that the person who has felt betrayed, lied to, etc., has become so fried on religion in general that they might not choose to investigate another church. Of course Aristotle's comments and data would suggest otherwise for the majority.

With regard to atheism in general. I can't know the mind of every atheist, however, but I don't see atheism as a choice. I see it as a progressive falling away of god belief in general until there is no God belief left at all. Atheism is a lack of belief in God. I don't see that as choosing a soft place to land. I see it as God disappearing from the world view and mind of the disbeliever.

Thanks for answering my question and talking about it! I might have more to say later...

_________________
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb


Stay close to the people who feel like sunlight ~ Arsu Shaikh


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:01 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:16 pm
Posts: 29218
Location: Off the Deep End
Ceeboo one more quick thought to share and for the purpose of this, I'm going to keep it simple.

You listed these: anger, hurt, fear, turmoil, pain, confusion, etc

And I mentioned a sense of betrayal.

We need to be mindful that these emotional states are not exclusive to the disaffected member, but can also be experienced by the believing family.

That's quite the psychological and emotional earthquake for the whole family to try to navigate, much less survive.

I suppose a lot of it has to do with each individual family member and their relationship to the church as well as the nature of their own belief.

In Christianity, you know, we talk about being lukewarm. If the nature of the religion in the entire family is lukewarm, then probably not so much of a problem. If the overall nature is on fire?

You've got big trouble and you've got it in spades.

_________________
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb


Stay close to the people who feel like sunlight ~ Arsu Shaikh


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:34 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 7296
Hey Jersey Girl! :smile:

Really good posts/points. I appreciate you sharing.

I don't really have anything to add - so I wont force it.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:41 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:53 am
Posts: 4033
Location: Oregon
Water Dog wrote:
For me it usually just boils down to those identifying as "atheists" being arrogant pricks.


Really?

_________________
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why ExMos's turn atheist!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:27 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7297
Location: On walkabout
Jersey Girl wrote:

With regard to atheism in general. I can't know the mind of every atheist, however, but I don't see atheism as a choice. I see it as a progressive falling away of god belief in general until there is no God belief left at all. Atheism is a lack of belief in God. I don't see that as choosing a soft place to land. I see it as God disappearing from the world view and mind of the disbeliever.


Get outta this atheist's head! :mrgreen:

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Grudunza, Majestic-12 [Bot], Mary and 48 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group