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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:07 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

Some more reading that shows Alma 32 to be in sync with the scientific method and/or principles of experimentation.



Alma 32 is certainly not anything related to the scientific method. It says do this and you will fell this, so the church is true. It's no different then me saying take an ice cube and put into hot frying pan. If it melts then the church is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Themis wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:

Some more reading that shows Alma 32 to be in sync with the scientific method and/or principles of experimentation.



Alma 32 is certainly not anything related to the scientific method. It says do this and you will fell this, so the church is true. It's no different then me saying take an ice cube and put into hot frying pan. If it melts then the church is true.


Or a business product. If it works for them, they buy more. If it doesn't, they won't buy it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
The steps outlined in the religious article quoted above in no way are an example of the scientific method.


Exactly!


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:17 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Isn't the hypothesis that the Gospel of Jesus Christ brings salvation/happiness in this world and the world to come?


Doing anything can make a person happy or sad. I think it is likely if you believe doing something is going to make you happy then you are more likely to be happy doing it or be biased enough to think it is making you happier. Salvation is not something you can test. You can't say do this and if it feels good you will be saved in the next life. That's not scientific.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:22 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:

That's how it sounds, but try to pin down exactly and what hypothesis you are testing in Alma's context. And, is it provable? How would we know it is true and how would we know it is false?


Isn't the hypothesis that the Gospel of Jesus Christ brings salvation/happiness in this world and the world to come? Alma tells us that we will know that the gospel is true by the "swelling motions" within us. Is it an emotional/elevation response? Partially, I suppose. But I'd think there has to be something more than that. And from what Alma says, and from what you've said, it doesn't happen all at once...at least for most of us. It's a gradual growth that occurs over time.

As silly as it may sound, it may be that it's a 'change of heart'. Something that happens in our very core being. Mind and heart.

Regards,
MG


In that sense, the hypothesis is too broad to be testable. An untestable claim made in a book presents a hypothesis and proposes the test. It's one thing to test something like, say, being kind leads to improved relationships over time in many cases, that may be testable with a plausible mechanism of cause and effect. But we cannot observe any results in the world to come here. We cannot test test "salvation" in this world without some objective definition of the "Gospel" and "Salvation." So while we can pin down things we popularly consider as elements of the gospel and qualities of salvation, things which can ultimately be attributable to forces independent of the divine, we are still left with untestable questions and untestable predictions.

I think that I was comfortable as a believer by imagining some asymptotic approach, little by little, approaching both the Gospel and Salvation, each asymptotically. I think I realized that the gaps would always be there, like in Zeno's Paradox. But for some reason, it still sounded good at the time, and seemed reasonable enough for me to feel good about blind belief as a person who thought of myself as reasonable.

But I was wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Nightlion wrote:

You never got the visitation of the Father in his promised baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Something was lacking. Perhaps you dragged into it too much of the hypocrisy of LDS arrogance that assumes in great error and actually tramples the Holy One of Israel under foot. The utter meekness and lowliness of heart required to please God will probably never again come out from among the ranks of the LDS Church.

This is contraindicated. Prophetic Mormon counsel has NEVER brought unto Christ the acceptable sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. Why you might wonder that it is so much a fact......? Well, money grubbing sycophants want to attract the rich and learned and those whose ambition will lead them to become the excellence of (Babylon) the world. To teach people to be meek and lowly of heart and of a contrite and broken heart of repentance that FORSAKES the world (oh! NO! NOT THAT! NEVER!) would be so much a burden of liability if meek and brokenhearted contrite souls fill up the ranks.

God would have to rule and not MONEY! No way Jose.


Excuse me, but you seem to be projecting far too much of your own personal prejudice onto my spiritual experiences.

LOL you must be kidding me. Sorry to ridicule your spiritual incompetence but you said so yourself:
Quote:
I am agnostic now. I am pretty sure that, at least in my life, if God is real, He/She is silent. Perhaps there is a God who created the world, but if God exists, I think that--the bolded--is the long and short of the relationship.


Political Correctness has no truck in true religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:16 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:

That's how it sounds, but try to pin down exactly and what hypothesis you are testing in Alma's context. And, is it provable? How would we know it is true and how would we know it is false?


Isn't the hypothesis that the Gospel of Jesus Christ brings salvation/happiness in this world and the world to come? Alma tells us that we will know that the gospel is true by the "swelling motions" within us. Is it an emotional/elevation response? Partially, I suppose. But I'd think there has to be something more than that. And from what Alma says, and from what you've said, it doesn't happen all at once...at least for most of us. It's a gradual growth that occurs over time.

As silly as it may sound, it may be that it's a 'change of heart'. Something that happens in our very core being. Mind and heart.

Regards,
MG

Please try not to conflate a good feeling that entices one to seek God more intently as the whole of the gospel. Alma knew perfectly what the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is. His counsel about how to 'approach' the gospel is not the end all and be all of the gospel. If a good feeling is all you need then true religion is not for you. You ought to stop handing out spiritual advise with such moronic interpretations of a serious subject as eternal life.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:

LOL you must be kidding me. Sorry to ridicule your spiritual incompetence but you said so yourself:


Political Correctness has no truck in true religion.


Agnosticism is not incomptence. Taking responsibility for my own spirituality is competence.

I do try to be polite, Nightlion, most of the time. It's not political correctness, though, but based on convictions far deeper.

Do you come here as a prophet?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:43 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
.

Do you come here as a prophet?
yes, he did.
fyi...

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:33 am 
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Choyo Chagas wrote:
yes, he did.
fyi...


That's what I gathered...but will he verify now?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:48 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Choyo Chagas wrote:
yes, he did.
fyi...
That's what I gathered...but will he verify now?

verify? unknown word - or activity - for prophets.
they make prophecies, see and revelate.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Choyo Chagas wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
fyi...
That's what I gathered...but will he verify now?

Choyo Chagas wrote:
verify? unknown word - or activity - for prophets.
they make prophecies, see and revelate.

The time is rather short for making a prophecy.
It mattered nothing who Jesus actually was to the Jews.
This forum is a platform to inform the lurker perchance one honest in heart might pass by this way.
Mormons refuse to engage me straight up. They have been consistent spiritual cowards for 47 years.
Atheist cannot refuse to tilt at my windmill. So I get some mileage expounding the simple SCIENCE of proven Christianity.
That science is what Jesus predicted for the outcome of faith on his name with full purpose of heart unto a willingness to forsake the world and seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Those who have done so in sacred history and this one here who did it back in January of 1970 have received the promised proof of God. And for me the subsequent miraculous life of a true saint with abundant fruits. Not the least of which is God's promised Ensign and rock cut out of the mountain without hands that smites upon the toes of Babylon (the Mormons Empire) fallen in the dust of apostasy before the Mountain of God.
In all intellectual integrity atheism, evolution, Islam, spiritual wickedness in high places are all crimes against humanity, calling down upon the world the justice of an offended creator.

And all the mini LDS attempts to bring forth Zion ignore the science of Christ's gospel. What folly! The world is top heavy with the love of itself. This is the stone in the heart of everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
Mormons refuse to engage me straight up.


To what end?

Regards,
MG

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Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. What is kind of silly, in a way, is that it would take me so long to figure that out. Maybe I didn't want to think it was true. Maybe I give too much the 'benefit of a doubt' to other people. I guess I should know better.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45503


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:55 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
Mormons refuse to engage me straight up.


To what end?

Regards,
MG

To their abject repentance. For the glory of Zion. Now run away.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:

Agnosticism is not incomptence. Taking responsibility for my own spirituality is competence.



When someone spouts something so incredibly dumb how can I refuse to point it out? Why tiff with me?

You have already ignored sufficient to correct your arrogance. But of course you have earned your degrees and will not be denied their supposed merits.
Put those in your Portfolio to show on the Day of Judgment and see how much weight they might carry.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:15 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:

Agnosticism is not incomptence. Taking responsibility for my own spirituality is competence.



When someone spouts something so incredibly dumb how can I refuse to point it out? Why tiff with me?

You have already ignored sufficient to correct your arrogance. But of course you have earned your degrees and will not be denied their supposed merits.
Put those in your Portfolio to show on the Day of Judgment and see how much weight they might carry.


I'm a real person. My first name is Rebecca. I believe in goodness and in truth and in being faithful to whatever truths I can best know. I don't understand your grandstanding and I am not interested in that. However, I am interested in things people can independently verify and discuss and share.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:

I'm a real person. My first name is Rebecca. I believe in goodness and in truth and in being faithful to whatever truths I can best know. I don't understand your grandstanding and I am not interested in that. However, I am interested in things people can independently verify and discuss and share.

Purdy much everyone is a real person, some few excepted. My grandstanding is a witness of the real purpose of life contrary to what mankind has made of it. I stand starkly alone in this. So yeah, I am without peers alone at what matters most about our world. A close read of christian scripture show that the key to it is a willingness to forsake the world to own righteousness in the kingdom of God. Since EVERYONE assumes a substitute religion of their own conceit it obscures what God is willing to truly work with here. I know what brings God into the world. I would like it if there were eight others. But there is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
Purdy much everyone is a real person, some few excepted. My grandstanding is a witness of the real purpose of life contrary to what mankind has made of it. I stand starkly alone in this. So yeah, I am without peers alone at what matters most about our world. A close read of christian scripture show that the key to it is a willingness to forsake the world to own righteousness in the kingdom of God. Since EVERYONE assumes a substitute religion of their own conceit it obscures what God is willing to truly work with here. I know what brings God into the world. I would like it if there were eight others. But there is not.


I'm sorry you feel alone, Nightlion.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:33 am 
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Quote:
Hightlion
You never got the visitation of the Father in his promised baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Something was lacking.


Yes, God was lacking. God always lacks. Also lacking is the integrity to keep his promise, something he can't do since he is the product of inventive humans minds. No one has actually seen God.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Were You, God?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
Hightlion
You never got the visitation of the Father in his promised baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Something was lacking.


Yes, God was lacking. God always lacks. Also lacking is the integrity to keep his promise, something he can't do since he is the product of inventive humans minds. No one has actually seen God.


Me and you have interacted online off and on for 25 years. You have always ignored the REAL gospel You lived up until your apostasy from God in an intellectual bubble void of any gospel accomplishments. As I see it you have merely shifted your weight from one foot to the other as both feet are in the denier's camp.

God is NOT lacking. I was hit just a couple of months ago with kidney stones that let to a urinary track infection. I first asked God to make the stones pass easily and they did. Then when hit with the urinary track infection I asked the Lord to heal me the same day. Not only was I instantly healed I felt his loving embrace of my soul.

Got to have a friend in Jesus.

And you already know how decorated I am in accolades of the gospel of God. The list is staggering. How do you figure I have stood resolute against the mixed turmoil of denial from both sides of the same coin? I have not only survived but thrived. And all that severely alone. Where is the like of it?

If you were a second alone in your atheism you could not endure.

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